Beware of Prophecy Code Coming to Calgary
September 23, 2009 at 8:50 am - By: Ro · About Church.I got something pretty ridiculous in the mail. I thought mailings were so 1980's but apparently some folks still try their darnedest to attract bodies to events using snail mail. Check out the front image of what arrived.
It's not too often you find America's right wing fundamentalist agenda seep over into Canada, but in conservative Calgary it's sort of inevitable. In October the 'Prophecy Code' will be in Calgary at the Big Four building for a two day affair. My first thoughts are, "wow the Big Four? how will they fill that place?". My second thought was, "man, I hope they don't fill that place."
I want tread lightly in this post, anytime one comments on other Christian movements they open themselves up to a lot of strife. However, when organizations come into my city with a certain message that reflects a small contingent of overall Christian history, it's worth posting in my mind.
Apart from that, here are some additional thoughts on this whole 'prophecy code' and comments on the overall perspective they and others represent.
The notion that there is some type of code that is unraveling before us as predicted in the Bible is a popular assertion but is largely false although it sells books and makes for junky movies. Evangelical Christians, and folks on the fence, eat this stuff up. Some may remember Hal Lindsay's 'The Late Great Planet Earth?' or know about the more recent the 'Left Behind Series'. All of these books were instant best sellers and went on to sell millions upon millions of books.
Although labeled as fiction, the authors weren't shy on pointing out how their fictitious account portrayed a somewhat accurate version of what's going down in the end times. For some reason it always has to do with the good white folks in America versus whomever the latest contemporary nemesis was. Be it Russia or broadly 'the Arabs', somebody was going to bear the brunt of Christ's wrath upon his return, and the more wrath the better.
What I want to point out for those who may not be aware is that these perspectives represent a very minute section of Christianity. The Book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible and contains an incredible, almost dreamy, and certainly confusing, account written by a John to seven churches in Asia Minor. People have long interpreted Revelation in three separate camps: premillennialists, ammillenialists, and post-millennialists.
These three views of the 'end times' can't really be described in one line but here goes: Premillennialists believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth and then after that judgement (after a monster conflict with Satan); Amillennials believe that when when Christ returns it's over, no fireworks; Postmillennials believe we're already in the '1000 years' and must work towards a better world before Christ returns.
So back to the caution. There's a very popular off-shoot of premillennialism that sprang out of America (actually rooted in the UK but then took off in the US) called dispensationalism. Essentially the view separates history into 'dispensations' or components and certain things happen to usher in another dispensation.
In comes prophecy. Dispensationalists will point to Revelation and use certain interpretations to explain current events thinking that the original writer John had their 21st century situation (of Russia v. America no less) in mind. In their mind things are very ordered and events today have a direct impact on when Christ will return.
That means one world currency is a no no, the rise of certain powerful nations (but America is OK), certain leaders, etc., etc., etc. The point of the Prophecy Code is to help people interpret these events and go back home and warn others I guess. (Maybe they're actually sending people home to be contributors in their communities, to right wrongs, and journey with folks as they embark on their own spiritual quests.)
So here are some additional highlights that you want to keep in mind if you're going, and keep in mind when you read or hear these perspectives.
1) Jesus isn't white as seen above in their pamphlet.
2) Very little of the Bible is actually predictive prophecy. There is plenty of prophecy, just very little of the predictive nature. When you hear about prophets in the Bible, their primary job was to take the message of God and translate in a way the contemporary people could understand. Usually it was news that went against status quo, but it almost always had implications for the present.
Apart from certain portions of Revelation and Daniel, predictive prophecy doesn't show up much in the BIble.
3) Assuming only we today in our present modern times can make sense of Revelation and it's supposed predictive prophecies implies the last 2000 years of church history were absolutely clueless regarding the interpretation of the book since it didn't apply to them. it seems strange that John would write something that made zero sense to his contemporary audience.
4) Speaking of church history, the three perspectives I mentioned above have a place in history; dispensationalism only turns up in the past 200 years. We should also note that the vast majority of contemporary biblical scholars, even evangelical ones, reject dispensationalism as a viable eschatological theology (fancy word for end times interpretation).
5) Dispensationalism is a bloody and gory end to things. The secret message of Jesus that isn't so secret is a message of love and reconciliation. In fact, the only saving grace that makes Christianity different is the fact God chose to act--chose to redeem humanity. The crux of that message is love and reconciliation. Why Christ would return with wrath and guns blazing to chop up all pagans in a bloody massacre is beyond me.
Do I believe in a final judgement? Sure, but I don't think it comes at the cost of God reigning military supremacy over the devil. That's way to Rambo-esque for me.
6) Rapture is a scam. Dispensationalist believe in a 'rapture' where all the good guys get taken away to heaven (but only for seven years cause they have to come back again?). The word rapture is never used in the Bible and the theology behind it relies on one single passage. This notion has very little support in the history of the Church.
7) Speaking of heaven, the huge problem I have with the whole perspective that we get the hell out of Earth to spend eternity in heaven singing to a harp is false. Dispensationalism and evangelicalism have done a diservice to Christianity by putting the hopes of their people into heaven. The Orthodox Christian position on where we end up is NOT in heaven. Heaven is maybe a holding place. We RETURN to earth, a new earth, one that is redeemed, a place where all wrongs have been turned right and every bad thing saved.
Again, the Christian hope is not in heaven--it's in the redemption of the world we live in now. We're not in this as an escape plan to get out, but are called to help God in his plan to redeem the here and now.
8 ) Finally, and I could go on but won't, speaking of the world we live in now, the dispensationalist perspective also lends to the notion that we can do whatever we want today because eventually we get the heck out. That leads to America turning into the largest capitalist and free market in the world, and simultaneously pillaging the world for its resources. No other place, except maybe Canada, do the citizens waste and destroy the planet. There's no reason to hang out and redeem what's here if we're getting out (and apparently getting out soon given the latest arms development in Russia <-- sarcasm.)
This was a long winded post on some reasons why you should not only beware of the Prophecy Code coming to Calgary, but also understand Christian perspectives that are quickly losing support even within their own ranks. I'm not going to say that dispensationalism is wrong, not my place to do so, but I will say that there are a couple of other strong perspectives that have far more support in the worldwide church community, far more support support in scripture, and far more support in our history.
But if you absolutely must go then heck, it's your time, just leave your purse at home. Better to loose just your time rather than your cash.
Zarach Says:
Just stumbled across your blog. I enjoy reading a wide variety of view points on Revelation.
September 24, 2009, 6:49 pmCurious, did the people who sent out the mailer identify who they are? Is this being hosted by a group? If so, who? Interesting to know who is behind the meeting. May say a lot. There are other points of view on Revelation not expressed by dispensational or evangelical thinking or the three major camps you mentioned (premillennialists, ammillenialists, and post-millennialists) too, of course. I would be interested in knowing more about your group and what point of view you are coming from. Did some reading on your blog and wondered if you have a newsletter. I like to keep up-to-date on various groups of believers.
Ro Says:
Hi Zarach:
Yes they are clearly identified on the back side of the flyer. Leverage by one charismatic leader in the States. I won't give him a shout out here since I don't want to give them additional publicity.
I'm curious to know about the other interpretations, since outside of the major three, the rest are generally obscure.
No newsletter, but what you can do is add our RSS feed to an online newsreader and it will tell you each time there is a new post. http://www.pomotheo.com is another place I write and others write as well that may be of interest.
September 24, 2009, 10:26 pmPeter Plum Says:
Hello, You obviously do not read your Bible much!
1.) Rev. 1: 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
2.) Very much of the Bible is predictive prophecy. A large percentage of what Jesus said was predictive prophecy. Some people say up to one third is directly or indirectly related to prophecy. Large portions of Genesis, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Psalms are prophecy.
4, 5.) This speaker doesn't believe in dispensationalism.
6.) This speaker spoke clearly against a secret rapture like the Tim Lahaye et. al. deception.
7.) This man presents the hope of living on the earth made new as in Rev. 21 & 22.
8.) He most certainly didn't support the view: " that we can do whatever we want today because eventually we get the heck out". He strongly stated that Jesus changes our lives, makes us kind, pure, gently, obedient; His servants that keep the 10 commandments, actively share the gospel. He was once a thief, drug smoking rebel, pan handling, getting his food from other peoples garbage, living in a cave..... in which someone left a Bible which he started reading just to be able to argue with Christians but it changed him and his life and for the last 25 years or so he has been telling others of Jesus' goodness, forgiveness, power, mercy, and the new life of peace, love, joy, hope, and the eternal life that He has given to all that will accept and follow Him.
My brother, you should not criticize or say anything about someone(s) of which you know nothing. Christ would not approve.
God bless.
October 6, 2009, 9:36 amRo Says:
I want to emphasize that I was not commenting on anything specifically from the Prophecy Code because I never went. I am commenting on the entire perspective of eschatology in general.
Funny you should close with "should not criticize or say anything about someone(s) of which you know nothing" yet open with this.
This was a vision of John's and not an indication of the race of Jesus upon his return.
Source? Simply not true. Although individual prophets may have made the odd predictive prophecy, the VAST majority is the type of prophecy that has prophet speak into his immediate context. To say that 1/3 of the bible is predictive is to say 33% of everything written had little bearing for the people of that time.
I never said he did.
That doesn't legitimize another rapture position though.
Good to hear. But you can speak that same hope too so go and do likewise.
Again I wasn't referring to him specifically although his transformation sounds nice.
October 6, 2009, 10:03 amdaryl Says:
I thought it was hilarious reading how this guy claims a 'better rapture' than Lahaye by saying it's not a 'secret' rapture. It's still rapture....! like the blind leading the blind.... just because you're position isn't as contentious or ridiculous doesn't make it any more palatable or legitimate when referring to the Bible.
October 6, 2009, 10:49 amPeter Plum Says:
Hello,
Re:
Hello, You obviously do not read your Bible much!
Funny you should close with "should not criticize or say anything about someone(s) of which you know nothing" yet open with this.
Good point... sorry.... what I should have said was.... "The artist was presenting an image of Jesus with imagery from Revelation... the white hair. I have met several Jews(that said they were of 100% Jewish heritage) that are a white as I am... and I'm of Polish, German, and Russian heritage, and the man in the image has an Olive complexion."
"To say that 1/3 of the bible is predictive is to say 33% of everything written had little bearing for the people of that time."
Not so. Much of the prophecy in the Bible was prophecy directly for that time or for soon coming generations. Most Bible prophecy has at least dual applications and some triple.
There was prophecy spoken to Adam and Eve, through Enoch, Noah prophesied for 200 years. Job prophesied, as did Moses, Israel, Balaam, Saul, David, Samuel, etc.. There are lessons to learn from prophecy even if it is not directly relating to you. Those that lived before a prophecy was in effect could have learned just a much as we that live after it has been fulfilled. The Bible warns/counsels/advises us:
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Also regarding the importance of prophecy is the following:
Pro 29:18 Where [there is] no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy [is] he.
The word 'vision' relates to prophecy. Anytime there was any major defection of 'God's people' it was because they ignored His prophets. The flood, the Babylonian captivity, the rejection of Jesus as Messiah, the destruction of Jerusalem, etc.
The following verse indicates that most of what happened beforehand is applicable and prophetical for us.
1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Re:
"That doesn't legitimize another rapture position though."
This speakers position on the 'rapture'(meaning those that accept/have accepted Jesus as Saviour rising to meet Him in the air and ever being with Him) is legitimized by the Bible and thus God, the final Authority, because he supported it fully from the Word and not his own or anyone else's ideas or preconceived opinions.
It seems strange that you would bring up the Prophecy Code, then say all these things although you were not referring to it???? By doing so you were certainly insinuating these ideas towards it and most if not all readers would see it thus. Perhaps in the future it might be wise to clarify better or post the thoughts separately.
I attended all 3 meetings(they had one Saturday morning) and can attest that it was Biblical, encouraging, meaningful, and pointed to and exalted Jesus.
God bless!
October 6, 2009, 10:57 amRo Says:
The point of the entire blog post was to point out that the pre-millennial / dispensationalist position of the three day affair is merely a small subset of Christianity mostly predominant in America and certainly not reflective of church history.
Rapture is not supported in scripture nor is flying in the sky with Jesus. The orthodox perspective, as supported by the universal church, is one of future hope in new heaven new earth. That' sthe focus, not heaven, not 'rapture'.
It's easy to say you thought it was 'biblical' because it sided with your perspective on how to interpret scripture. You also believe that each prophecy may have up to three different meanings. This is so dangerous when it comes to biblical interpretation. So suggest that there is hidden meaning to give you more meaning today is eisegesis (reading what you want into the text).
Now, I'm not saying you are wrong necessarily, but again, I made the point to show how this prophecy code perspective is a small one of many.
And to make my final point on this, I would like to caution on making your Bible = God. The bible is not God, nor, dare I say, it is not without error. God is perfect, your english bible is not. There is a monster difference between the two.
Just because you take pieces of scripture to legitimize your perspective does not entail that 'God told you so', nor that you're the absolute authority on the subject. That's really dangerous and can lead to trouble in a variety of different ways.
October 6, 2009, 11:11 amPeter Plum Says:
Re: the following statement:
"I thought it was hilarious reading how this guy claims a 'better rapture' than Lahaye by saying it's not a 'secret' rapture. It's still rapture....! like the blind leading the blind.... just because you're position isn't as contentious or ridiculous doesn't make it any more palatable or legitimate when referring to the Bible."
The definition of the word rapture as relating to the Bible is: "The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven." Sounds like you don't believe in any kind of rapture, thus are not planning on being in heaven.
The following are Bible verses relating to the rapture:
1 Thess. 4:15-17 ; Rev. 1:7; John 14:2-3; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Matt. 24:30-31; Matt. 16:27
Is there anything "contentious or ridiculous" about these verses or the truths they contain. Do you have problem of the truth of the 'rapture' as portrayed in the Bible because the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible? Then you must also have a problem with the trinity, the triune nature of God, because the word 'trinity' is not in the Scriptures as well. My position and Doug Batchelor's is Biblical. One is only blind as he rejects the Word of God. If you reject the Word nothing can convince you of Truth or save you.
Luke 16:31
Shortly after this Jesus resurrected Lazarus and they still didn't believe Him but plotted to kill both Him and Lazarus.
What is truly 'ridiculous' and 'hilarious' is saying someone's position is "contentious or ridiculous" without knowing their position! We need to be Bereans. Acts 17.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John17:17
October 11, 2009, 1:20 pmPeter Plum Says:
Re: the comment:
"The point of the entire blog post was to point out that the pre-millennial / dispensationalist position of the three day affair "
You ARE NOT LISTENING!!! The speaker does not believe in the pre-millennial / dispensationalist position in any way shape or form. There is nothing, nada, zip on the flier to indicate thus! You are assuming, imagining, and inventing something that is not there. In other words blatantly telling falsehoods or in simple terms, lying! Doug speaks against both these positions... strongly, I might add.
Re: the comment"
"Rapture is not supported in scripture nor is flying in the sky with Jesus."
See my previous post regarding the 'rapture'. Regarding "flying in the sky with Jesus" please refer to 1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught UP together with them in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the AIR and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken UP; and a CLOUD received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly TOWARD HEAVEN as he went UP, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven.
As for the rest of that comment... it is fully your imagination for neither I, the brochure, nor Doug even hinted that the 'rapture' was our hope. Our hope is to be with the Lord; to be like Him. The Biblical 'rapture' is God's way of getting us to heaven to be with Him.
Re: your comment: "It's easy to say you thought it was 'biblical' because it sided with your perspective on how to interpret scripture."
My perspectives are formed by what the scripture says after looking up every verse in the Bible regarding any specific subject... never to support any perspective I had, because before I read the Bible I really didn't have any 'perspective' but questioned or doubted anything of a religious nature that I had ever heard. I think positions, ideas, truths, are Biblical because they concur with what the scriptures says, and are in total agreement with all Scripture. Simply put, I believe they are Biblical because they are Biblical.... they originate there, are support there, and are not in controversy with the rest of Scripture.
You said, "You also believe that each prophecy may have up to three different meanings."
I said, "Most Bible prophecy has at least dual APPLICATIONS and some triple." Not the same thing. I don't believe this... I KNOW it and have been able to convince every single person that was willing to listen and study, that this was so. I am not saying"that there is hidden meaning". It's plain as can be to those that search and study. It was plain as can be that Jesus was the Messiah, the Savior, the Lamb, but most of the Jews rejected it because they used eisegesis and didn't listen to what God was saying and meant. God was plainly revealed in the Scriptures, and how the Messiah would come, live, teach, and die, but they couldn't see it/Him because of pride, selfishness, love of the world, trusting in teachers/leader, etc., and they crucified Him when He came. It won't be any better when Jesus returns! People will not be expecting Him to come in the way He says He is coming this time either! And It will cost the majority of them their eternal lives because they did not "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" and search the Bible as for hidden treasure.
God is Good!!!
October 11, 2009, 2:19 pmChris Says:
You should go to the meetings to find out more about the speaker and what they believe. Perhaps you can talk to him after the meeting and voice your opinion. Best of Luck : )
October 11, 2009, 8:48 pmRo Says:
Hello Peter,
I appreciate your dialogue and extend a note to our conversation that it may proceed in respectable manner as it has thus far.
Allow me now to comment on a few additional points.
Now on one hand you offer a 'definition' as the realted to the Bible. Yet you also elevate the 'Word of God'. So which is it? Do we admit your definition is merely an opinion or that your definition is on par with scripture? You would agree that your rapture definition isn't infalliable and thus a mere point to help your arguement.
I will comment further on your chioce of Bible verses in greater depth later on. 1 Thess. 4 is, however, the most popular verse of the lot to support a literal rapture.
The Trinity is insipient in scripture as in there is no other way to describe God. However, even some people find ways, they are called Unitarians. Eschatology, however, has three dominant views of post, a, and pre. So we go back to testing like Bereans and seeing what the overlying theems and narratives of the Bible portray. Is it riding a white cloud to heaven? You might be disappointed.....
I also don't think the issues are as white and black you make your exclusive claim to eschatology. You state that rapture is a 'truth' thus = those who do not believe in a rapture to be outside the grounds of truth (thus false). However, church history shows us that rapture is not a dominant perspective. Are we to suggest that hte vast majority of current Christians wordlwide (90% or more?) and those in the past are all false? Yet a subset of evangelicals in America and Canada are exclusively right?
You cannot and should not take your perspective of scripture and propogate it as the ONLY truth/interpretation. In the very least you have to acknowledge there are varying persecptives of theological issues such as eschatology.
Ok Peter, we'll do it this way, you wish to act like the Bereans therefore I will hold you to that. The Bereans did not have all the scriptures and certainly had none to little of the NT. What they did do, however, was test what the apostles had to say to see if it correlated with the narrative of Christ's redemption plan for creation.
The Bereans spent lots of time testing, are you doing the same? Testing implies looking at varying opinions and not staying stuck in your own. The Bereans would have changed their mind had they had sufficient evidence to do so. Are you spending the same time investigating different ideas?
I believe you are once again confusing bible and Jesus. 'Word' as used in John does NOT refer to the Bible.
So far everything you have stated that was said is dispensationlism or pre-millennialism. If it is neither then please state so. I am listening and would love to know which it is. Is it amillennial or post-mill? If it's a fourth one then you aren't doing the job the Bereans did because there really is no legitimate fourth alternative.
Which one is it?!
[ FYI, you don't need to put in scripture in full it will automatically show. Futhermore, I'm not suggesting that some of your verses don't point to some form of Christ's return to earth, however, liekt he Bereans we have to put that in the right context. ]
In light of the entire narrative of scripture what is being said throughout?
You ignored the KEY to some of my comments. That is your HOPE is not in heaven. We have so little talking about h eaven. We DO however have lots talking about redemption and new heaven and new earth.
If you are truly claiming to live like the Bereans, then here's a book I encourage you to read: Surprised by Hope: by NT Wright. A must read, get it from the library if you don't want to buy it. It is almost UNchritian to keep talking about being in heaven with God because our story has little to do with heaven.
If that was the case, simply put, you would not accept literal rapture as the primary truth in scripture. Did you know that your english persecptive from your english bible is merely an interpretation based on the editors and translators? You can read Greek and Hebrew right? Because those languages are necessary to pull out what texts really meant to their original readers. But even then, we may never capture original intent.
You interpretations should line up in four categories: in history, in community, in rationality, and in experience.
Yes I know, God is not scriptures, he was revealed in them, so strop treating them as on par with each other.
Who is 'they'. The disciples didn't understand either, are they just as 'guitly'. In fact, Christ seems to 'hold' the truth from the dicisples until after resurection.
If your Christianity consists of seeking the Kingdom of God ON EARTH and his righteousness (thereby joining God in his redemptive acts in the here and now) then I can buy in. If you're faith is about finding 'hiding treasures' in the Bible then I'm sorry, that's a bit too boring of a faith for me.
Get the NT Wright book! I also recommend Millennial Maze by Stanley Grenz. Both great authors and theologians.
October 12, 2009, 10:14 amRo Says:
My reply on your use of scripture here:
1 Thess. 4:15-17 ;
This is an interesting passage by which you find the most dialogue on the rapture since it is this place in the Latin Vulgate that the word rapture was first used. (Funny, as an aside, that the same people who condemn the Catholic church use their translation to solidify their claims of rapture. Not saying that's you.)
Following your own statement of using what's incipient in scripture (Trinity and Rapture is what you said) the we must do the same here. What's incipient, and in fact CLEAR as the orthodox Christian position on end times, is that we spend eternity with Christ in a new heaven and new earth; so this earth redeemed, for eternity. So we can't be in the air forever........
What this passage does suggest is that Christ returns in some fanfare in a white cloud.... so we'll see a theme of clouds for the other scriptures too. This is not, however, a proof text to how we'll be raptured up into heaven for eternity. That would go against the remaining scripture on the redemption of this world (the final consummation of God's Kingdom on earth).
Acts 1:9-11
Again, nothing to do with rapture but reference to how Christ will return. Clouds again...... says nothing on WHEN, just the fanfare of some components it may have.
Rev. 1:7;
Again, how he might return. But here, we don't have a 'for certain'. What we do have is a vision from the writer John to the seven churches of Asia Minor. Nothing on how people are raptured.
John 14:2-3;
Nothing on rapture or people leaving. This is, generally, however, a passage describing heaven. So we DO have scripture on heaven, but it's unclear how it plays into God's final plan since we have a redeemed earth and heaven. Perhaps this is the holding place before 'everything goes down'?
1 Cor. 15:51-54;
Nothing again on rapture, not even close. This, however, is a great passage (context on resurrection of the body) on new heaven and new earth. You are not a Christian unless you acknowledge resurrection, and also second resurrection (that is all will be resurrected when it's all over.) THis passage clearly explains that resurrection. Nothing on heaven or rapture though. All about hope though! Get that NT Wright book.
Matt. 24:30-31;
Nothing about rapture (us leaving). Again, clouds of Christ returning.....but it has nothing to do with our hope in heaven either. Seems again heaven is this holding place in the interim because Christ is leaving (coming) back to earth.
Matt. 16:27
AGain, Christ coming, nothing to us leaving.
So if you are truly acting like the Bereans then you will in the very least acknowledge that there are other ways to interpret these scriptures. I'm not seeing any indication of rapture and nothing even INCIPIENT in these words. Please point it out if I've missed it. If anything Peter, you've only corroborated my position of new heaven and new earth, an orthodox Christian position, and probably yours too if you take your own advice and treat scripture with scrutiny. Good luck.
To switch gears, you earlier referred to how scripture correlates with itself, etc etc and you've studied it, etc. etc. If you are really brave go pick up the book by Bart Ehrman called, "misquoting Jesus" or "misquoting the Bible". Now, take them with a grain of salt, but he'll show you how if you wish to take every verse as inerrant you'll fail. That's, however, another discussion for another time.
October 12, 2009, 10:47 amNigel Says:
I can happily recommend that all persons visit Google and type in "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "Deceiving and Being Deceived," and "Famous Rapture Watchers" - all by the journalist/historian who has written the bestselling nonfiction book "The Rapture Plot" (see Armageddon Books), and the one whose research has been endorsed by a galaxy of leading thinkers (Google "Scholars Weigh My Research"). Fascinating reading day or night. Nigel
October 15, 2009, 11:33 pmCarlos Says:
i know its a bit late to comment on this post. however, there may be some value to do so anyway. i have gone to these presentations by this denomination. what they are presenting is " line upon line, precept upon precept " Bible passages. they are using the Bible to interpret itself. this is the only way to understand the Bible, when you remove all human opinion, and let the Bible speak for itself. this is not an evangelical meeting asking for money, they don't ask for money. once they asked if you wanted to contribute to pay for the venue you could, but there is zero interest in your wallet. or in selling you stuff. the greatest day of my life was when God made himself real to me, not an ethereal comment, and the second greatest day was 12 years later, going to the presentation and just hearing the concept of Isaiah about Line upon line... i take everything the Bible says about a particular subject out, and then like a puzzle assemble it, in its context of each passage and paying attention to the meaning/significance of its time in history, then allowing the meaning of the topic to explain itself. that is Bible Code of these meetings.
June 30, 2010, 7:36 amGod Bless, and go see it to make up your own mind. it is good to try and protect each other as Christians, as there are a lot of deceivers out there. so thanks for all the comments.
Ro Says:
I'm always skeptical of people saying 'this is the only way to read the bible". Usually people who say that come up with fancy interpretations.......
Do, however, divulge specifically what the Prophecy Code tried to teach, I am curious for specifics.
June 30, 2010, 7:51 amCarlos Says:
its very difficult to expand 25 nights of presentations into a colemans commentary. i am a layman at best, but will try to pick one subject for discussion. i want to point out that there are videos made by the presenters so they can be watched at home, and should be available on youtube. there is also "Revelation Speaks Peace Series" a parallel to these presentations (same presentations, just different title and speaker), and videos are easier to find. i only put that info up, because if you google the brochure (above), you can find a web page with info about it.
now, i have to say that some of my favorite subject has been the talk about the Beasts in the Bible. there is a lot of opinions and ideas, especially from dispensationalists, on what the meaning is behind all of them. i will not do it justice to try an give the presentation, but i will say that the they used the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation as the primary bases of pulling information about the beasts out. as both books are filled with the beast dialog. some of the ideas that became clear were, Wings = Speed, Heads & Horns= Kingdoms/Political Powers, the Sea or Great Waters = People,...
the beasts that appear in Daniel, come back in Revelation. if you can follow what Gabriel explained about each beast and how it applied to the current Kingdom, Babylon (the lion (Gold)), then it started to predict the subsequent Kingdoms, Persia (the Bear(Silver)), Greece (the leopard and the He Goat(Bronze)) and Rome (the Iron Beast(Iron)). the Daniel was written during the time of Babylon, when King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about a statue. the head of Gold, body of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron and feet with toes of miry clay and iron.
this dream was a prediction that the kings kingdom would not last forever, but that it would be overthrown and this dream indicate who would the successors be. Persia, then Alexander the Great (greece), then rome and rome would not be completely disbanded. the ten toes are the ten countries that form todays european union. and those ten powers/kingdoms will not end until a stone that is not cut by human hands comes to destroy it. that Rock is symbolic of Jesus.
so, in Daniel is the story of Christs return, amidst all these beasts. when this information is taken to Revelation, it can be used to identify what kingdoms/political powers are to show up in our future.
i will stop there. we who really want a relationship with God, practice a lifestyle that pleases him, and communicate/talk to him. so there is no fear for the future, the fear for the future is for the unbeliever who whole heartedly rejects everything God.
that is the ultimate outcome to the presentations.
Ro, if you are interested in viewing the 25 presentations, i can send you my originals thru the mail. i cannot do the presentation justice, it is something you should review yourself, and if its just garbage, pitch it there when you are done. i submitted my email when i replied to this post, just drop me a line. you can also try the youtube thing or buy a set online.
June 30, 2010, 9:18 am